Pipeline · Episode 2 · Oct 13, 2026 · 13 min
How to Use a Mutual Action Plan to Test Whether a Deal Is Real
Kaveh Pazooki, founding account executive at Surfe, uses the mutual action plan as a lie detector. In his words, it vets whether or not the deal is real. He gives the prospect deliverables and checks whether they actually execute on them.
Key takeaways
- Put deliverables for the prospect on every mutual action plan, including the inputs you need for the ROI analysis you'll present to their boss.
- After a large group demo, book five-minute one-on-ones with end users to find out what they like about the incumbent and what would make them hesitate to switch.
- At the proof of concept kickoff, ask who the economic buyer is. Kaveh Pazooki treats a refusal, or a promise to present it internally, as a red flag.
- On Monday morning, check your top three active deals for a plan, prospect deliverables and whether those deliverables were executed. If the answer is no across the board, park the deal outside the quarter.
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Driving pipeline in your business only does you good if you can turn it into closed deals and revenue. Welcome back to Pipeline. I'm your host, Joseph Lewin. I'm super excited to be joined by my guest today, kaveh Pazouki. He is a rockstar account executive. He was at Datadog, Rippling, Salesforce, and now he's a founding account executive at Surf. So he is the right guy to be talking to about how to close deals and get them across the finish line. So Kaveh, welcome to the show
Appreciate you, Joseph. Yeah, thanks for having me, mate
Yeah, so I wanna just dive right in with what is your, what's your secret sauce or what's, what's your, what are you seeing working right now to get deals across the finish line?
Yeah, man. Um, so I don't think it's anything revolutionary. I think, um, you know, middle management always tries to, you know, force a, a mutual action plan, uh, in place, um, as like a, a procedure or protocol. Um, but for me, it, it's really used as a lie detector. I think it vets whether or not the deal is real. Um, so yeah, that's really what I'm using right now to turn pipeline into closed one revenue. Um, and I use it in a couple different ways
Awesome. Yeah, so walk me through mutual action plan. Walk me through just for anybody listening who doesn't know what that is. Give me the
Yeah. So a mutual action plan typically is, it, it'll operate like we're working towards a common goal, right? Just when do we want to execute this by, uh, and different steps along the way. Um, so some people kind of look at it as like a project plan that, you know, you can kind of present after the deal's closed. Like, "Hey, this is all the steps that we took to actually vet the vendor." Um, but for me, again, I use it to, to multi-thread. I use it to, um, again, really see if the deal is viable. Um, I use it to, again, forecast correctly. I use it to really just iron out the different steps and the complexities in a deal. So, you know, I think typically, you know, w- when I talk about how it's like a lie detector more or less, um, they're coming to you with a problem, right? Is it a real problem? Are they more of a tire kicker? Is it kind of like a loose evaluation? If they're coming to you with a problem and you're offering a solution, um, then they're bought into solving that problem and they're gonna be kind of, you know, be willing to take lead on, "Hey, this is how we're gonna conduct an evaluation."
Um, so you know, like for example, if it's like a, a two-week proof of concept, we're setting up like, "Hey, we've done our demo. Um, you know, the next steps is we're going to have a check-in with the different, you know, evaluators that are part of the demonstration process. We're gonna have a formal check-in, you know, um, midway through the proof of concept, and then we're gonna have like a readout at the end." So those are some of like the steps that I take within a proof of concept, but then there's not a lot of other pieces that are part of the mutual action plan that allow you to multi-thread, get the power, conduct an ROI analysis, and all that kind of stuff.
Awesome. So yeah, it sounds like part of that is just getting skin in the game because people can talk through it and they can say, "Oh yeah, our executive team is super excited about this. They're on board." But if you don't know who any of those people are, you don't have any way to know when they're gonna get involved, how they're gonna get involved, who's signing off, all that kind of stuff, then that doesn't really mean anything except for this person happens to be excited about it. Is that kind of the, the idea?
Exactly right. And that's-- it just goes back to whether or not is the deal real or not, right? 'Cause if the problem is, you know, tough enough, then they're gonna be willing to, you know, loop in the different stakeholders and not just like, you know, we're sales guys, right? So it's like we're, you know, we have rose-colored glasses when they say everything's great, you know, it's, it's just, "Yeah, everything's great. Um, yeah, I'll be able to present this to my boss and it'll be fine." Okay. Yeah. I've heard that one before.
Right. So that's kind of a vetting of your champion. So can you give me an an example of where doing a mutual action plan has helped you? Like, I mean, just generalizing on a deal where you feel like it wouldn't have moved forward or you really could… And maybe, maybe it's even, I, I'm cool with either way, either like one that was successful or one that you were able to vet out really quickly wasn't real from a mutual action plan.
Yeah. I mean, uh, my ego's too brittle to talk about one that didn't work, so we'll talk about one that did work. Um, but yeah, I think, you know, when I was dealing with a prospect and, you know, initially I'm super single-threaded, right? So I have this, you know, this RevOps persona who, you know, he- he's coming to me and it seems like things are a, a, a big headache for him, and this is currently, you know, at Surf. I know that I gotta get to power. I know that I have to get multi-threaded within the different users. They're-- all the salespeople are kind of, you know, comfortable with their existing solution. So the pain is resting with him, and it sounds like him solely, right? So, throughout the mutual action plan, you know, you'll have like a discovery call and a walkthrough with the platform. Then you have to get buy-in that can I demo this to the end users who will actually be using the platform?
When you demo it, again, when it's like a large demonstration, it's gonna be, you know, a lot of just nodding heads, a lot of people not really engaging. So what I try to do after that demonstration is book like five-minute one-on-ones for like an onboarding training and really dig into like what's working so well with them with the incumbent that, you know, would cause them hesitation to switch off, right? So like you're constantly doing this-- Yeah, you're constantly doing discovery and you're, you're kind of able to not just have your initial persona's pain, but now the other folks' pain as well, even if they were unbecoming about it in the beginning. Um, so then, you know, when you have those different stakeholders involved in the actual trial or proof of concept, um, they know you, right? They know you, they know they can go to you if they have any questions throughout it. Again, this is vetting the process because now I know they're actually engaged with the platform or they're not engaged with the platform or if they're not engaging with me or if they're not active throughout the, the process.
Um, so yeah. So in this case, like, you know, the one-on-ones really helped. I uncovered a lot of pain from the end users that the original persona didn't have and now this is all gonna be used in the ROI analysis for the executive at the end. So, you know, you have a mid-trial check-in, you get a, a pulse check and, you know, you talk about like, "Hey, this is what the next steps look like," right? "So I've, I've sent you all the security and the compliance documents and the procurement documents. Now who do I have to follow up with to, you know, make sure that we're working in tandem, um, to get that portion of it cleared?" Okay, great. I have the stakeholder there now. When I present the mutual action plan at that like proof of concept kickoff, I'm trying to vet out who the stakeholders are, right? So who is the economic buyer at the end that we're gonna have to present this to? If they're not willing to give me that or if they're gonna say they're gonna present that internally, it's kind of a red flag for me.
So I mean, I, I can go through the different steps of it as well, but I wanna pause and see if you have any questions about that process so far. This episode of Pipeline is brought to you by Podcast to Pipeline. We help you book meetings with target accounts through an account-based podcast. Instead of reaching out cold to target accounts and trying to get them to book a demo, if you reach out to those same accounts and invite them on a podcast, it makes getting in front of them and starting a conversation much easier. You're adding a ton of value to people on your target account list and starting that initial relationship with them at the same time. We've helped our clients book meetings with companies like Capital One, Netflix, LinkedIn, Amazon Web Services, Zoom, and helped them to drive millions of dollars in revenue. If you're looking to drive pipeline and revenue in your business, reach out to me, Joseph Lewin, on LinkedIn or go to podcasttopipeline.com
Yeah. No, I lo- I love that five-minute one-on-one. That's brilliant because, uh, yeah, I mean, there's so many different people who can be involved, and they could either want your software for reasons that you haven't even realized that you're able to uncover, or they might be a major blocker, and they could ultimately kill the deal even if they're not one of the main decision-makers, if they're an important person or they have a voice. And without doing that, there's just no way, no way that you would know that. So I think that's, um, that's brilliant. So I'll kind of tie this in. One question I like to ask, and I'll tie, I'll tie this into it, is what can somebody do on Monday morning next week to, to implement this? So thinking in those terms, like making it super actionable, walk me through the steps of what a good mutual action plan would look like that somebody could map out and start using, um, next week
Yeah. So I would say on a Monday morning, take your top three active deals. Um, for each one, you know, is there a mutual action plan in place, right? Um, does the prospect have deliverables on it, right? So it's not just I'm giving you, but what are they getting you, right? So is the prospect actually giving you the inputs that you need to develop an ROI analysis that you're gonna present to their boss at some point? Um, and have they hit-- have they actually executed on, on their deliverables? If the answer is no across the board, then I would say it's not a healthy deal. Maybe, you know, park that outside the quarter. Um, you know, understand where your gaps are, and then bring it to your forecast meeting with your boss and say, "Hey, listen. These are the gaps that I'm calling out in this deal that I have parked in for, for the quarter. Let's strategize on how we can mitigate those risks." So I think, you know, if, if I could tie it up in a bow, take those, you know, those three active deals.
Do you have a plan in place? Is the prospect, you know, actually executing on their deliverables? Do you have deliverables from them? And then if you're not, strategize with your team on how you can mitigate some of the risk in the deal
I love that. That's super clear. I wanna ask you one more follow-up on this. So I feel like especially for young sellers or somebody that's not used to maybe the, the complexity of the sales that you're talking about here, they might be a little bit uncomfortable asking some of these questions and feel, you know, like they're being too nosy or they're gonna ask a question that's gonna upset the champion. So how, on a super practical note, when you're getting ready to introduce a mutual action plan or you're getting ready to ask some of these questions, how do you tee that up with a champion so that you don't step on their toes? Or is that thought process just totally crazy and people understand how this works?
Yeah, no, I think earlier on in my tenure also, um, the mutual action plan wasn't always mutual, right? It was me talking at them about this is, you know, what we're gonna do. So you have to get buy-in from them. So I'd really just kind of tease it with like, "Hey, you know, when I work on my prospects and when w- when I work on my clients, typically we work on this together because I'm gonna owe you some stuff and, you know, there's gonna be some stuff that, there's some homework that you're gonna have to do. Are you comfortable?" And again, like you can keep the mutual action plan dynamic. It's not like a static thing that has like end dates that, you know, explode if you don't meet them, right? So you have to meet the client where they're at, um, and be flexible with them. But ultimately it's like, "Hey, this is, you know, in my experience and I, you know, you've come to me with this problem and this is the solution that I solve for.
Um, this is what works," right? So, you know, we can amend the mutual action plan accordingly, but as long as they have buy-in on it, then, uh, I think you have a strong deal in place.
Dude, I love it. This is exactly what I was looking for in this podcast is ex- You just gave so much good information and stuff that, uh, I, I think it's really applicable, uh, across the board. So one last kind of fun question for you. If you were, you know, you're planning your next vacation, beach or mountains?
It's a good one. Um I think I'm g- th-this is, , one that I didn't think I'd ever actually say, but I'd go mountains now
I love it.
Yeah.
I've primarily been a beach guy myself, but I went on-- we went on an out west trip. My kids are getting a little bit older, and, uh, it was amazing. So I'm
H-how old are your
leaning a little bit more that way. Uh, they are 13, 11, nine, and, uh, five. So
Bless, man. That's awesome. Yeah, mine are, mine are five and three, so I think for now we might have to take them to the beach, and then when they get a little bit older they'll probably hit the mountains with a little bit more
I love it. Well, thanks for a little peek behind the curtain, and for everybody listening, thanks so much for tuning into "Pipeline." Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts, and we'll see you guys on the next episode
Cheers, Joseph
You've got a deal in the quarter and a friendly champion who keeps saying their boss will be fine with it. With the number due, you want to believe them. I talked with Kaveh Pazooki on this episode of Pipeline. He's a founding account executive at Surfe, and he doesn't take the champion's word for it. He uses the mutual action plan to vet whether or not the deal is real, by checking whether the prospect is doing the homework on their side of the plan.
What does it mean to use a mutual action plan as a lie detector?
Kaveh Pazooki, founding account executive at Surfe, says the mutual action plan vets whether or not a deal is real. He frames that test around the buyer's problem: is it a real problem, is the buyer a tire kicker, or is it a loose evaluation? That is what he means when he calls the plan a lie detector.
Kaveh defines the plan as working toward a common goal, built around when the buyer wants to execute and the steps along the way. He lists four jobs he gives it:
- multi-threading the deal
- seeing whether the deal is viable
- forecasting correctly
- ironing out the different steps and complexities in a deal
"for me, it, it's really used as a lie detector. I think it vets whether or not the deal is real."
Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe
"Is it a real problem? Are they more of a tire kicker? Is it kind of like a loose evaluation?"
Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe
What should a mutual action plan for a two-week proof of concept include?
Kaveh Pazooki of Surfe builds a two-week proof of concept around scheduled checkpoints with the people evaluating the product. Those checkpoints run from the demo to a final readout. The rest of the mutual action plan is where he multi-threads, gets to power and builds the ROI analysis he'll eventually present.
The checkpoints he sets after the demo:
- A check-in with the evaluators who were part of the demonstration.
- A formal check-in midway through the proof of concept.
- A readout at the end.
"We're gonna have a formal check-in, you know, midway through the proof of concept, and then we're gonna have like a readout at the end."
Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe
How do you multi-thread a deal when only one person feels the pain?
Kaveh Pazooki, founding account executive at Surfe, books five-minute one-on-ones with end users right after a large demo. He frames them as onboarding training and uses them for discovery: what users like about the incumbent and what would make them hesitate to switch. That gives him pain beyond what his first contact felt.
In one deal Kaveh walked through, he started out single-threaded. The salespeople were comfortable with their existing solution, so the pain sat with one person. The sequence he ran:
- A discovery call and a walkthrough of the platform with his contact.
- Buy-in to demo the product to the end users who would actually use it.
- The large demo, which he says mostly produces nodding heads.
- Five-minute one-on-ones with those end users.
- A trial where the users already know him and come to him with questions, so he can see who's engaged with the platform and who isn't.
Joseph Lewin pointed out what those short calls can surface: users who want the software for reasons the seller hadn't found, or a blocker who could kill the deal without being a main decision-maker.
"So what I try to do after that demonstration is book like five-minute one-on-ones for like an onboarding training and really dig into like what's working so well with them with the incumbent that, you know, would cause them hesitation to switch off, right?"
Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe
"I uncovered a lot of pain from the end users that the original persona didn't have and now this is all gonna be used in the ROI analysis for the executive at the end."
Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe
What are the red flags that a deal isn't real?
For Kaveh Pazooki of Surfe, the clearest red flag comes at the proof of concept kickoff. When he presents the mutual action plan, he asks who the economic buyer is. If the champion won't say, or says they'll present it internally, he treats it as a warning that the deal may not be real.
Kaveh's reasoning is that a tough enough problem makes a buyer willing to loop in other stakeholders. Joseph Lewin added the other half: a champion saying the executive team is excited means little if you don't know who those people are or who signs off. Kaveh applies the same test mid-trial. After sending the security, compliance and procurement documents, he asks who he needs to follow up with to get that portion cleared.
"So who is the economic buyer at the end that we're gonna have to present this to? If they're not willing to give me that or if they're gonna say they're gonna present that internally, it's kind of a red flag for me."
Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe
"we have rose-colored glasses when they say everything's great"
Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe
How do you check your pipeline with a mutual action plan on Monday morning?
Kaveh Pazooki of Surfe starts with your top three active deals. For each one, he asks three questions: is there a mutual action plan in place, does the prospect have deliverables on it, and have they executed on them? If the answer is no across the board, he says it's not a healthy deal. He suggests parking it outside the quarter and taking the gaps to your forecast meeting.
"So I would say on a Monday morning, take your top three active deals."
Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe
"These are the gaps that I'm calling out in this deal that I have parked in for, for the quarter. Let's strategize on how we can mitigate those risks."
Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe
What to Try on Monday
- List your top three active deals.
- For each one, check whether a mutual action plan is in place.
- Check whether the prospect has deliverables on it, including the inputs you need for the ROI analysis you'll present to their boss.
- Check whether they've executed on those deliverables. If the answer is no across the board, consider parking the deal outside the quarter.
- Bring the gaps to your forecast meeting and strategize with your boss on how to mitigate the risks.
How do you introduce a mutual action plan without upsetting your champion?
Kaveh Pazooki of Surfe tees the plan up as shared work. He tells the champion he'll owe them some things and they'll have homework too, then asks if they're comfortable with that. Early in his career, he says, his plans weren't mutual at all: he was talking at buyers about what was going to happen.
Joseph Lewin raised the worry many newer sellers have, that these questions will feel nosy or upset the champion. Kaveh's answer is flexibility. He keeps the plan dynamic and meets the client where they are. He amends it as the deal changes. As long as the buyer has bought into the plan, he considers it a strong deal.
"the mutual action plan wasn't always mutual, right? It was me talking at them about this is, you know, what we're gonna do."
Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe
"typically we work on this together because I'm gonna owe you some stuff and, you know, there's gonna be some stuff that, there's some homework that you're gonna have to do."
Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe
The next time you present a mutual action plan, Kaveh's question to the champion is worth borrowing word for word: "Are you comfortable?" As long as the buyer has bought into the plan, he thinks you have a strong deal, and he'll amend the plan accordingly.
Frequently asked questions
What is a mutual action plan in B2B sales?
A mutual action plan is a shared plan between seller and buyer toward a common goal: when the buyer wants to execute and the steps along the way. Kaveh Pazooki, founding account executive at Surfe, says some sellers present it after the close as a record of how the buyer vetted the vendor. He uses it during the deal to multi-thread, forecast correctly and test whether the deal is viable.
Who should be involved in a mutual action plan?
Kaveh Pazooki works several groups into the plan:
- the evaluators from the demo
- the end users who will actually use the platform
- whoever needs to clear the security, compliance and procurement documents
- the economic buyer who will see the final ROI analysis
He tries to identify these stakeholders when he presents the plan at the proof of concept kickoff.
Should a mutual action plan have fixed deadlines?
Kaveh Pazooki keeps the plan dynamic. In his words, it isn't a static document with end dates that explode if you miss them. He meets the client where they are, stays flexible, and amends the plan as the deal changes. What he holds firm on is buy-in: as long as the buyer has bought into the plan, he considers it a strong deal.
What deliverables should a prospect own on a mutual action plan?
Kaveh Pazooki looks for deliverables that give the seller the inputs needed to build an ROI analysis, which the seller will eventually present to the prospect's boss. A plan that only lists what the seller is giving the buyer misses this. The second question he asks is whether the prospect has actually executed on those deliverables.
What should you do with a deal that fails the mutual action plan check?
Kaveh Pazooki asks three questions of each active deal: is there a plan in place, does the prospect have deliverables on it, and have they executed on them? If the answer is no across the board, he says it's not a healthy deal and suggests parking it outside the quarter. Then take the gaps to your forecast meeting and work with your boss on how to mitigate those risks.
This article is based on Episode 2 of Pipeline featuring Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe.
Show notes & linksGuest links, resources and the full episode description
The fastest way to find out whether a deal is real is to ask the prospect for homework.
Most mutual action plans get built because middle management wants one in place, which makes them a formality. On this episode of Pipeline, Joseph Lewin talks with Kaveh Pazooki, Founding Account Executive at Surfe, about running one as a lie detector instead. Kaveh has sold at Datadog, Rippling, and Salesforce, and he builds the plan with the prospect rather than presenting it at them. After a large demo where most people just nod along, he books five-minute one-on-ones with the end users and asks what’s working well enough with the incumbent to make them hesitate. That surfaces pain the original champion never had, and it’s what feeds the ROI analysis for the economic buyer at the end.
What you can use by Monday:
- Take your top three active deals and check whether each one actually has a mutual action plan attached to it.
- Look at whether the prospect has deliverables on that plan, not just you, and whether they’ve executed on them.
- If the answer is no across the board, park the deal outside the quarter instead of forecasting it.
- Bring those gaps to your forecast meeting and ask your manager to strategize on how to mitigate the risk.
- After a group demo, book five-minute one-on-ones with the end users and keep doing discovery on what they like about their current tool.
Chapters
Meet Kaveh Pazooki: Datadog, Rippling, Salesforce, and Now Surfe
Why a Mutual Action Plan Is Really a Lie Detector
What a MAP Does: Multithreading, Forecasting, and the POC Timeline
Rose-Colored Glasses: When Champion Excitement Isn’t Enough
Deal Breakdown: Escaping a Single-Threaded RevOps Champion
The 5-Minute One-on-One That Uncovers Hidden Pain
Mid-Trial Check-Ins and the Economic Buyer Red Flag
Sponsor: Podcast to Pipeline
Monday Morning Playbook: Audit Your Top 3 Deals
How to Introduce a MAP Without Stepping on Your Champion’s Toes
Beach or Mountains?
Pipeline is short conversations with GTM peers who are actually filling pipeline right now, so you leave with something you can use by Monday. New episodes weekly on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen. Produced by Podcast 2 Pipeline.